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It's about 9 pages, so it's a good chunk for you guys to dissect!
Some of the page numbers will be a bit off, depending on the version you have of the book, but you should be able to find the quotes ok, I tried to make them large chunks of text so if you needed to find them you could. I used the new US paper backs.
Seeing as this place has been a wee bit dead recently, I'm just going to ask the question what do people think that the fire on the front of the HBP UK Edition cover means??
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I'm wondering if its that fire which Dumbledore wanted Hagrid to give to the giants maybe or the blue/purple flames we hear about frequently.
Odd question which occured to me last night, that fateful night in Godric's Hollow when Voldemort came to kill the Potters, but was stopped by the infant Harry.....was his body found in the wreckage?
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We know that Voldemort was less than the meanest spirit and was ripped from his physical body......his spirit-self fled but did his body remain?
I'm just curious, I'm not sure if it particularly means anything.
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A little theory I thought was kind of interesting, and wondering what all the rest of you happen to think?
One last thing brought up in response here is that house elves, although it has not been stated in canon, presumably have long lives because they serve multiple generations of wizarding families. Which might explain how DD grew to be so old - why do we not know of any other wizards of such age, if its normal for a wizard?
Y'all already know this already but nevertheless I feel compelled to point it out since this is afterall an HP community and since we've been dead for a while: July 16.
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Phineas' portrait hangs in Dumbledore's office along with those of other previous Heads, and he rather grudgingly does his duty and helps Dumbledore when pressed. His portait also hangs in Number 12 Grimmauld Place (OP37); he and Sirius did not get along well. (HP Lexicon)
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I was thinking about Phineas Nigellus the other day, and realized theres a little bit of a paradox that surrounds him and the other portraits. I think it would be fair to say that quite a few pureblood families, sometime over their bloodline's lifetime would have had a headmaster of Hogwarts. This Headmaster would also have had their poster hung in Dumbledore's office. Said headmaster would also, like Phineas, have their poster in the families' homes. But if said pureblood families are actually... Death-Eater leaning, as quite a few families tend to be, how do they deal with the fact that the portrait is honor bound to serve Dumbledore?
I realise that this is a bit away from what we've been talking about recently.....but it still concerns Sirius....I'm reading Mugglenet's "Underground lake" Editorials at the moment (let me recommend!) and a thought suddenly struck me
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[quote="Mugglenet"]Our next fact comes a day later. Tuesday, news spreads throughout that Voldemort is dead at the hands of baby Harry. Almost twenty-four hours AFTER the Potters' death that Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning, Hagrid is dispatched by Dumbledore to go to Godric's Hollow and get Harry. Hagrid retrieves Harry from the ruins (noting the fresh scar on his forehead). Meanwhile, Sirius Black goes to Pettigrew's hiding place to check on him and instead finds him missing. Sirius immediately heads to Godric's Hollow on his flying motorcycle to find the ruins of the house and baby Harry in Hagrid's arms (PoA, 365). After some argument, Sirius allows Hagrid to take Harry and offers Hagrid his motorcycle (PoA, 206-7). Hagrid takes Harry to Dumbledore late Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning, where he is then left in the 'care' (and I use the term loosely) of the Dursleys.
THis missing day has been bugging me certainly for quite along time, I know that there are others who feel the same! We know that Pettigrew was the secret keeper for the Potters, not Sirius. Also from what we know of the Fidelius charm, you could know where the Potters were living (ie godrics hollow) but unless you were the secret keeper OR the secret keeper told you, you could happily walk by Godrics Hollow and not see the people who were under the Fidelius Charm. SO how did Sirius know? How did Dumbledore know to send Hagrid? The Dumbledore question is one which doesn't particularly bother me, it would be easy for Dumbledore when he was performing the charm for the Potters to have added an addendum....but the Sirius one bothers me....especially when we know Sirius would have had "possession" to Harry as his Godfather and the next time Peter and Sirius meets, Peter out-performs one of his mentors and blasts a street of Muggles into oblivion...... Could you see Peter telling Sirius casually in conversation "oh and by the way the Potters are at Godrics hollow"?
Maybe we don't know enough about the Fidelius charm to know if it can be disolved...but Peter wasn't dead so it couldn't have been that way, we know that Harry is better protected than he knows so maybe there was some little extra added by the great DD when performing the charm......but it still doesn't answer to me how Sirius knew.
....or maybe I'm being overly picky...
Also the fact Lupin doesn't even enter the equation.....but thats probably another topic for another post!
Apologies for not following this up sooner! Stupid job got in the way and the LJ errors!
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I should clarify, I never thought that maybe Sirius had an importance on his own until I posted about Sirius giving Harry some sort of freedom and it got me to thinking. I came to the conclusion (feel free to disagree) that what happened to Sirius just drives home how Voldemort can turn family members against one another....Bellatrix (a first cousin) was the main physical cause of Sirius going through the veil, Sirius disagreeing with his family left them/was disowned which ever your view point is, Sirius had nothing to do (that we know of) with his younger brother once he left his family home and moved in with the Potters.
Sirius to me highlights exactly how awful Voldemort's reign of terror was and possibly will be.
Symbolically I do think that its interesting that although he yearns for freedom ~ freedom from his family's bad name, freedom from Azkaban, freedom from Grimmauld palce and giving Harry as much freedom as he can that symbolically he is trapt by these things. While trying to be free of ties, himself and Harry grew closer and closer (queue the quote about seeing Sirius as a mix of father and brother) and it was in trying to give this freedom to Harry that he ended up going through the veil. The irony...I'm sure would not be lost on him.
Not just the Spanish Main, love, the entire ocean, the entire wo’ld. Wherever we want to go, we’ll go, that’s what a ship is, you know. It’s not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails that's what a ship needs but what a ship is…what the Black Pearl really is…is freedom.
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Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Carribbean
I think we can all agree that, for the most part, Sirius is in love with the idea of freedom. When we look at Sirius's past, we can see a penchant for being able to do what it is he wants, and this essential idea of "being free". This part of the "wild-child" sense we get of Sirius: his sneaking around as a big black dog, moving out from his parents (although there were other issues involved here, but I don't think that Sirius's love of freedom does play a role.)
Particularly, I wanted to focus on Sirius's most prized possesion - his motorcycle, and how it relates to his love of Buckbeak, the hippogriff and make the case that both the motorcycle and Buckbeak represent freedom of Sirius. I'll break it up into two different sections.
(1) Sirius's flying motorcycle. We do know that the bike was one of Sirius's most prized posessions (see Hagrid's discription in Book 3 of how Sirius gave him the bike in Hogshead). Sirius' motorbike, much like Jack Sparrows ship, gave him the power to move around, to go where he wanted.
(2) Buckbeak the hippogriff Over OotP I've noticed Sirus has an affection for Buckbeak. And in a way, this only makes sense, because Buckbeak was Sirius's key staying free in PoA. But also we can see how he begins to grow attached to Buckbeak through OotP. A quote I particularly like was when, during Christmas when Sirius is all cheery cause everyone's around he walks past the room Harry's in singing "God Rest You, Merrye Hippogriffs" (OoTP, 501). And then there's the fact that Kreacher fooled Harry by distracting Sirius by injuring Buckbeak.
So I'd look to present the idea that both the flying Motorcycle and Buckbeak are Sirius's favorite posessions because they represent freedom to Sirius.
And finally, these are the questions I would like to ask as an extension of that:
(1) It is interesting that the one time Sirius really needs freedom from a situation, from Azkaban, he didn't have either of those posessions. What does it suggest for, if Sirius is still living, his escape from where ever he is now?
(2) Where is the motorcycle?
(3) If freedom is one of the most prized "posessions," why does Dumbledore lock him up, and why can't he see this?
(4) Finally, could Sirius have been using Buckbeak to travel outside of the house without Dumbledore knowing?
Now... bring me that horizon.
Jack Sparrow (again)
So JKR confirmed on her website that Dumbledore sent letters to Petunia and that the last letter sent was the one attached to Harry when he was delivered to the Dursley household. Also important to remember is that Petunia had somehow heard Dumbledore's voice.
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At first glance its unlikely that the correspondence pertained directly to what to do in the even of Lily and James's death. After all Sirius hadn't been acused of being a murderer yet. But if you think carefully when Dumbledore left Harry at the Dursely's Sirius wasn't a murderer yet either.
My idea is that the Potters didn't know about the prophacy. They knew that they were being targeted and they knew that they had to go into hiding but they didn't know why. Which makes sense. Dumbledore knew that either Harry or Neville were going to be marked by Voldemort. And of course you can't ask a parent to step aside and let Voldemort mark their kid-after all who knows what that could entail. Most parents would choose to sacrifice themselves-hoping that Voldemort would mark the other child-after all both sets of parents were more than capable of defeding themselves. So telling them in advance wouldn't change the circumstances around their death-they'd still die fighting to protect their son. So why tell them-why not let them hold out hope that they won't die and that going into hiding will be enough. After all who knows, the prophacy could be wrong. That's what you're hoping for.
But now theres a new question. The marked child's parents will die. That child will need somewhere to stay. You know that Voldemort is going to attack the child and lose so its pretty obvious that he's going to go away for a while-whether because he was temporarily defeated or because he's so embarressed it doesn't really matter. Where ever this child ends up going could be pretty long term. So Dumbledore decides that it might be best for Harry to stay with his aunt and uncle. After all if he's going to stay in the magical community the only option is Sirius (remember that no one predicts that Sirius will go after Peter). Now Sirius is a pretty good guy. You like him. But hes 22. Now of course James and Lily were 22 but they were married and probably much more settled down than Sirius who was a much more rambunctious, partying and wild 22. Hes not necessarily your first choice to raise a kid especially when you consider that James will be dead and every one says that this kid looks just like James even though hes only a year old and Sirius does have a tendency to fawn so maybe Sirius isn't such a good idea.
But who then? The rest of the magical community is out because Sirius does have the right to raise the kid if the kid is going to be raised in the magical community because he's the kid's godfather. You'll have to leave the kid out the magical community then-who knows maybe it'll do him some good and its easy enough to explain to Sirius. And outside of the magical community the only person is Petunia. After all this person needs to know about magic and still but a muggle. And it wouldn't be bad if this person were related to Lily because you've been thinking about how this kid's going to escape from Voldemort and the only thing you can think of is that neat piece of ancient magic and you remember reading about some cool ways to expand upon it if you keep the kid with a relative.
So Petunia it is. Oh course you need to set some things up with her. She needs to be slightly in the loop. And besides you've always felt that Lily should at least make an effort to talk to her sister sometimes. So you send her some letters filling her in and bada-bing-bada-bang everything's explained.
Not my favorite explanation. I do have a second theory though.
What if Petunia were some how working against Voldemort. It would explain her previous correspondence with Dumbledore, it would explain her knowledge of Voldemort and what her is and it could even explain her knowledge of dementors. There are still a lot of questions with this idea but honestly I like it better because its a lot neater. Although with this idea I'm not really sure what her work against Voldemort would be.
Sorry for the dreadful typing and half-formed ideas. I just had to get this out before I forgot. I'll come back and edit asap.
When DD is talking to Harry about what Kreacher told the Malfoys' he says:
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"'Like the fact that the person Sirius cared most about in the world was you,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'Like the fact that you were coming to regard Sirius as a mixture of father and brother.'" (OotP 831 US).
Interesting construction especially since DD just said this information would be valuable to Voldemort. Does Sirius have any importance on his own? Orignallly I though not but thats such an odd construction of that sentance that I suspect that he might. Is Sirius a target on his own? He obviously is as a member of the Order but is there anything else that distinguishes him individually?
I would say yes. Voldemort is very good at the psychological part of the battle. He worms his way into people's trust. In GoF he wormed his way into Harry's trust through Imposter!Moody and in SS he did the same thing with Quirrell and Harry. Sirius could be a target because of his relationship with Harry. Voldemort is hoping to break Harry. He's hoping that if Harry doesn't have much to live for Harry won't fight back as much and will be easier to kill.
Voldemort has good reason to believe that. Part of Harry's motivation at the end of GoF was to return Cedric's body.
The first step in breaking Harry could be killing Sirius and that could be one explanation for the construction of DD's statement.
Just to get us started:
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1) The first inconcisistency is the reference to two teachers - Professors Tofty and Marchbanks. One second Prof. Marchbanks is giving Harry evil looks, the next minute Prof. Tofty is telling him to pay attention. What gives? Were there two different teachers, or was JKR having a naming issue? (Page numbers: 720 - 721 US)
2) When Malfoy taunts Harry in the DoM, he assumes Harry knows what the prophecies are. So if he knows that Harry knows what they are, and assuming most of the DE assume that Harry knows what they are, then what's with the vision? They're asking Sirius to grab the prophecy - but the DE would know that Harry knew that they couldn't do that, and then they would know that Harry would recognize the vision as fake. So I'm wondering - what if the prophecy that Sirius was being crucioed to take... Was a prophecy about SIRIUS? That would make sense, no?
3)The time between when Snape finds out about Sirius' attack, and the time when the Order actually shows up at the DoM. What, did they honestly think Harry was going to NOT show up at the DoM? And even if they weren't sure, the delay was still pretty long. Why didn't the order know sooner, particularly if they knew so early on - Snape knew when it was broad daylight, yet still the order didn't show up till probably after 12. Could it be a betrayal by Snape? Could there have been a fight with DE outside of the DoM (DE waiting outside the MoM for the order which they knew would inevitably show up).
4) Why didn't Dumbledore tell Harry what the veil did, particularly when the conversation centered on how DD was going to tell Harry everything as well as Sirius' death? --> My thinking on this one is that maybe Dumbledore thought that Sirius was killed by a spell, hence he wouldn't have to explain it. Or else, wouldn't he go into a little bit more depth about the veil? Particularly given the context...